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I'm specially interested in the questions about defining the relationship between Muse Group and external developers like contributors who have their own interest, will and schedule. Because to speak about myself one of my main concern and interest for Audacity right now is to never see a split of efforts and other waste like I have seen so many time in other projects, either because one group has the name and the other group the workforce, either because of disagreements between parts, either because of lack of interest in being part of a whole. Without much information I assume it's good and welcome if Muse Group can put paid people on making Audacity better and putting Audacity in places it's not there yet, but defining relationship with the community seems to be an important point to address to begin with. Hello people. |
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I'm also curious about this. "Acquiring" an open-source project that's licensed under the GPL2 -- or licensed under an open-source license at all -- seems really sketchy to me. (Is it even legal under the GPL to do something like that to begin with?) The lack of information about the acquisition, supposedly from a company who holds a stance that Audacity will remain "free and open-source", is also suspect. I think that we as the community have a right to know a lot more than what the company has provided us. If Muse Group -- whoever they are because I've never heard of them -- are trying to put on the face of transparency and trustworthiness, they're failing big time at it. |
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After answering these questions, I think it would be beneficial to work with the community towards written, specific policies on shared governance. I'll point to the Fedora Council Charter as a positive example of a for-profit company supporting a community project. RedHat employs a few select people to work on Fedora full time and pays for Fedora's infrastructure, but for the most part the project is run by and for its community. I've been using Fedora for 15 years and never felt concerned that RedHat's involvement with the project was harmful or in conflict with the community. |
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The only thing that I can think of is, that the name "Audacity" (which is a trademarked name, AFAIK) was sold. I cannot think of any legally possible way of really selling a GPLed source with more rights to/for the buyer than to anyone else would have/retain who aqcuired the source by other means (by e.g. just downloading the source). |
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The "Audacity" logo trademark was filed in March 2021: In case that link throws a session error, also refer to: |
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@ethindp Indeed it's possible to acquire an open-source project and it's fully legal (and is not necessarily harmful), GPL2 has nothing to do with this, GPL2 is mostly about making sure the copy you get once under GPL2 will still be GPL2 forever in your hands (even if yourself don't agree with this). A company can acquire the name, hence the brand and trademark. It's not the project per se, but a project with its renowned brand is as fragile as a newborn again, so yes selling the brand makes huge part of acquiring a project. Selling only a brand already happened in the past with some other projects, though it appears that's not what is happening with Muse Group and Audacity there, there is multiple articles on the web clearly stating about taking care of the open source side of Audacity, the freeness of it, improving it (1, 2, 3) and even testimony from a developer who joined the team to work on Audacity (and one who know about open source), one who already worked for another open source software previously acquired by Muse Group: Muse Score. So time will tell, but for now we can't assume it's bad per se, and don't look harmful at first glance (though they may still have to learn a bit about some expectations of open source users given #835). That can be good if they behave well. A company can also hire the key developers of a project, hence owning the workforce. A company can hire project heads, acquiring the decision. That can be good if they behave well. In some case (if the sellers got copyright assignment) it may even be possible for a company to buy the copyright of the open source project with right to remove the GPL2 itself. That would not be good if that happened but I doubt it would happen with Audacity, and that's not what Muse Group does with MuseScore they acquired before anyway. So that part looks safe.
@Locutus74 A fork would be the worst thing for everyone (see my comment there), after a decade Xonotic never recovered the Nexuiz coverage after the Nexuiz trademark was sold, after a decade LibreOffice haven't recovered yet the other half of users using OpenOffice because they don't own the OpenOffice trademark… Such a fork would be bad for users, for audacity as a project, and for Muse Group. No one has something to gain from a fork. This only have to be done on last resort. If MuseGroup seems to have to learn a bit about open source communities, for now all they did were mistakes they can fix and learn from, they didn't tried to harm the project intentionally yet. |
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@illwieckz ... nope, a fork is not necessarilly the worst thing for everyone. LibreOffice is the very best example for this. And BTW: What you described is exactly not acquiring a GPLed project. It's aqcuiring just the name, only. Why? Just because the company which aqcuired the project does not have any more rights on it as anyone else who has the source-code. With the name it's a different thing, though. And the name may be more important in the first place. But not on the long run... |
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I think that what is being lost in all this is the simple question: |
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At least at a first glance "MuseCY Holding LTD." seems to be a typical letterbox (money laundry?) company in Cyprus. |
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Before we all loose our heads, there's plenty of legal and reasonable reasons to form a shell company. Also wasn't it determined in 835 that MuZe Group is not affiliated with MuseCY? |
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Maybe. I must admit, that I did lost track after hundreds of posts in 835... |
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@Locutus74 This is not contradictory. My opinion is that the Xonotic fork was the best thing that happened to Nexuiz, in term of direction. The LibreOffice fork is very successful and can be named among the most successful fork in history. But the sad reality around this is even if the fork was the best thing that happened to Xonotic, Xonotic never recovered its recognition and reputation 10 years later, French Wikipedia even deleted three times the Xonotic page because of lack of recognition. The sad reality is that even if LibreOffice is one of the more successful fork in history, half of the users still use OpenOffice, most of them probably don't know LibreOffice about at all, 10 years later, and I verified this around me. Forking is engaging oneself for a full time job. This is just wasting time for every parts. Xonotic didn't have the choice to lose the brand. LibreOffice didn't have the opportunity to keep the brand. Note that LibreOffice is a special situation. LibreOffice was based on GO-Office which was an enhanced OpenOffice (basically all the Microsoft docx/xslx things were implemented in GO-Office first), at the time, and before LibreOffice existed, almost all Linux distributions shipped GO-Office under OpenOffice name. It was like, OpenOffice with GO-Office patches. But after all that Oracle buying and other details, the definitive split from OpenOffice was inevitable. LibreOffice suffered from the lose of the name, but they already had the workforce from before Oracle bought OpenOffice wen acquiring Sun. So yes LibreOffice is a perfect example of successful fork, but also the perfect example that even after a decade such fork can't recover the same brand recognition and only gets something like half the users… At this point nothing in MuseGroup acting makes a fork inevitable. They clearly made a mistake, but they can learn from it. No door is closed.
Both Xonotic and LibreOffice examples show that a long run of 10 years is not long enough. Anyway this thread is about getting answers from MuseGroup. At this point we need answers from MuseGroup and they made many people angry, but they did not made any unrecoverable mistake that would make a fork inevitable yet… So better not be responsible for greater harm than they did by causing the fork oneself. At least, MuseGroup didn't forked, and they had right to, that's a notable thing to notice, that means they don't want to split the community. |
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Muse Group has imposed a CLA on MuseScore. That's another topic though. Let's discuss that in #844. |
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@IGBC I have determined, by emailing Dominic Mazzoni and perusing puiblically available records, that the trademark, "Audacity" is owned by MuseCY Holding Ltd., and it was purchased through their legal representative, Tony Berman. So MuseCY Holding Ltd. incorporated in Cyprus is definitely the correct company. If any employees, management, or legal counsel of MuseCY Holding Ltd. are reading this. I urge you to reveal the whole truth about this company, its ownership and leadership. |
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They have WHAT? If I would have contributed there I would not sign this but asking them to remove my contribution... They're not on ones right mind... (I really need to clarify if I possibly can except them from using/linking against/derive from my GPLed code (with a lawyer, obviously).) |
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Do we need a seperate issue for demanding that the people behind MuseCY Holdings Ltd and/or MuseCY SM Ltd. identify themselves and stop hiding behind Cypriot shell companies? This is not honest and open conduct. |
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I don't think so. After all, one of the questions listed is: "Who exactly is behind Muse Group; what roles do these people have?" I've got to say, I'm quite astonished that there is still no reply from any of those who do have at least some of the answers. |
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You're going to have to rely on public statements from https://mu.se/ and what you can work out for yourselves form publicly available information. Beyond that, rely on actual behaviour of people actively working on Audacity. You can't tell that from immediate actions over the short term, only from longer term. We use GitHub issues for issues with code. If someone closes this, it will be closed and locked pretty quickly. I'm converting this to a discussion so that it can stay open, at least for now. |
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Since we're on our own here, I've also done a tiny bit of digging once again. Some of the information being nothing new; just trying to bring all the relevant information together in this discussion. Alright, tossing some bits and pieces in here:
Audacity's founders:
Current Audacity team members: When someone tried to remove the paragraph of Audacity's acquisition by Muse Group from the Audacity Wikipedia article, that edit was reverted, stating that "The source code cannot be monopolized, but the development project can be purchased". |
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Some more bits and pieces. Here are the Forum threads I managed to find that are relevant to the topic at hand:
Also, for those who haven't seen it yet, Tantacrul commented on a reddit post regarding the telemetry PR:
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Hi there, I have 10 years of experience with MuseScore. When this software was real open-source. I am(was) the font designer (Gootville aka Gonville in MuseScore). Now, I am Polish translator only (for PC/Mac and mobile). If you want to know, how MuseScore looks at this moment, see here: www.trustpilot.com www.trustpilot.com Until a few months ago, the overall rating was below 2 stars. My mind about MuseScore at this moment well illustrated by the scene from the famous movie: www.youtube.com www.youtube.com Greetings, Gootector
Dnia 12 maja 2021 11:16 Julien ***@***.***> napisał(a):
github.com @orenwatson your insinuation is an insult to me and my efforts and the efforts of all the rest of the pre-transition team.
I completely understand that and I agree that the insinuations are quite far-fetched, given that new code usually finds its way into the project as a PR which would undergo review (unless I misunderstand something).
However, I would ask you to also understand that the recent secretiveness around the overtake, the controversial telemetry PR will lead to progressively more speculation and theories -- as long as there isn't any clear communication from Muse Group and/or the Audacity Team. Just try to consider how a comment like that of James ("You're going to have to rely on public statements") makes the community feel.
To give a really weird analogy (sorry, I can't come up with anything better right now), imagine you're a kid living with your parents. All is fine and dandy. One day, a new guy shows up, barges into your room and announces: "I'm your dad now!". Meanwhile, your actual dad just says: "You have a new dad now. I'm scared and excited and so should you". While you're still trying to make sense of it all, the new guy comes into your room again, with a bag full of equipment, and says: "Oh by the way, I've prepared a surveillance camera system that I will install in your room today. You don't mind, do you?". After showing him your finger and sending him away, you start asking questions: "What does all of this mean? How is this even possible?". But neither your mom, dad, nor the new guy say anything other than: "Don't worry, your life will stay the same for the most part". Silence after, no questions answered, everyone just pretends all is business as usual.
Again, sorry for the weird analogy (it really isn't one, is it), but maybe this can help with understanding of why some people are now questioning everything . In a way, it is positive: it shows that people really care.
— You are receiving this because you were mentioned. Reply to this email directly, github.com view it on GitHub , or github.com unsubscribe .
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Some more information here Xmader/musescore-downloader#5 (comment) More related to musescore than audacity, but it is the same company, so I would assume the same team?
and more stuff in there... |
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@workedintheory if you want to build trust that Muse Group will work for the benefit of Audacity users and free culture, you're going to have to address the issues with MuseScore.com that @marcan raised. By dismissing them as unimportant matters that only a small number of people care about, not only have you alienated people, you have missed a business opportunity. You could make MuseScore.com a platform for independent musicians to monetize their work and take a reasonable, small portion of the revenue like Bandcamp (10-15%), but instead you've created an artificial dichotomy between public domain and paying money to large corporations. And as @marcan discussed, if you allow Creative Commons Non-Commercial licensed scores on MuseScore.com to be uploaded by people who are not the copyright holder, you must provide a means for attribution, indicating the license, and it must not be behind the subscription paywall that pays unrelated companies. You're also going to have to address the very concerning issues that @Gootector raised regarding misleading MuseScore.com users into paying for a subscription they did not want then refusing to fully refund them. If you do not address these issues, I cannot trust that Audacity is in good hands and I'll remain concerned about whatever undisclosed plan you have to monetize Audacity. |
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I've done a good amount of work on Muse Group's Wikipedia page, and the reason for why it's so bare is because of the limited amount of information out there. We're just as blind as people here are. But when information is released it will be added to the WP page. |
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Here is the fork I'm going to use: |
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You may also want to hear some stories about Muse's attitude too. |
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I love how "Muse Group" is really called "MUSECY HOLDINGS LTD", as seen in their "Privacy Policy", and yet no else sees that as "shady" or "dishonest"... thoughts? |
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For those who may have missed it, they are now putting a CLA on Audacity (#932). And nobody was surprised. |
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As this keeps being referenced in other threads, I will go ahead and answer these quite directly so that we may close this thread:
Yes. There are generally a number of assets connected with an open source project that are possible to acquire or acquire license to in addition to GPL.
There were many long hours of discussions with the founders, Audacity Team, and contributors. We made a proposal. They agreed. Lawyers wrote a lot of fancy words. Trees were killed, ink was spilled, etc.
Muse Group acquired the Audacity trademark and project infrastructure in addition to a license to the source code from contributors to the Audacity project in the form CLA.
See above.
This is easily answered by visiting our Web site - https://mu.se/newsroom/tpost/3dkxig59m1-muse-group-launches-to-support-music-tec
To continue the development of the world's most popular audio editing software. The goal is not to create the best free audio editing software, but the best audio editing software that just so happens to be free. As with MuseScore, details of future plans will continually be shared with the community as we go along.
Continuing to build up a dedicated team of experts that will work full-time contributing to the project.
Similar to MuseScore, active discussion for contributors will take place in the Audacity Discord in addition to Github. This is a more effective place to discuss and debate features with other contributors. In addition, you will see a considerable amount of actual user research with surveys and direct interviews with users 1 on 1 as we consider new functions and features. There will be times where the broader open source community, the contributor community, the user community and the Muse team may be at odds. In those cases priority should be on the needs of the user community first, balanced with the needs of Muse and the contributor community. We welcome insights from the broader open source community.
The Audacity Team is still as engaged as ever. It is up to them to determine how long they wish to continue, though some intend to be engaged with Muse indefinitely.
That may also be found on our web site: https://mu.se/newsroom/tpost/6dhedma301-muse-group-acquires-audacity-expanding-c -- _Audacity co-founder Dominic Mazzoni says "I'm proud of how Audacity has achieved so much success over the years, but there are many features and user interface improvements that I've always wanted Audacity to have, but were difficult to achieve as a small, community-supported project. I'm thrilled that Audacity is now part of the Muse Group, which has a proven track record of building high-quality and powerful creative tools for users while keeping them free and open-source." Co-founder Roger Dannenberg adds "Watching Audacity grow from an idea in a research lab to a worldwide phenomenon, and working with the great people that made it happen, has been a great thrill. I am looking forward to this new chapter in the life of Audacity, which I expect will be better than ever."_ |
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Both the Audacity website as well as Muse Group's website states that Muse Group has acquired Audacity. However, hardly any details have been given. The information given on the Wikipedia page on Muse Group is also vague and questionable at best. All we have to work with is this quote from Tantacrul's video:
This raises several important questions. To name a few:
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